Neither Israel nor Iran has a perfect democracy. Neither do we for that matter. All of our democracies are corrupted, or maybe 'constrained' is a better word, by powerful outside forces, outside of the will of the people. In Iran, it's the Ayatollahs and the fundamental constraints of alignment to a particular religious foundation. In the US, it is economic powers and the obsessions of certain entrenched facilitators that support these players along with their own extremist agenda. In Israel, you have all of the above.

As far as freedom of speech and movement goes, again, each of these countries is a mixed bag depending on a number of factors including who you are and where you want to go or what you want to say. In Iran, some types of free speech are constrained by the legal system, but the system is still open in so far as laws can be changed by a political process which the people are free to participate in. In general people are free to travel where they please. In the US, we are barred from visiting Cuba, and Iranians have a difficult time coming here. Some of the kinds of free speech physically repressed in Iran are merely undermined and suppressed by a very powerful corporate media here. The information is actually more successfully removed from public view than in Iran where there is an open battle, though there is less danger to the participants here.

In Israel, it appears that some subjects are more open for discussion than in the US, but at the same time, the government continues to manipulate the people by their accumulated fears. They do not have a constitution, so there is no underlying set of ideals except for Zionism. The exclusivity of Zionism mandates the 2nd class citizenship of the Arabs. The territorial expansionism of Zionism keeps the country in a state of continual warfare which causes much pain and confusion to the population at large, and keeps the Arabs in a situation of distrust and conflicting interests in relation to the Jewish population.

Arabs living in Israel may get to vote and go to school, but they can't intermarry with people in the occupied territories. They can't visit family members who live there. They can't return to the homes and property they lost in 1948 even though those areas are not now occupied in many cases. Nor can they speak out for their fellow Arabs living in the occupied territories and associated with nationalist movements in border countries like Lebanon and Syria without being accused of sedition and inciting terrorism. In this country, it's been a long road from black suffrage to black parity in the society, and we aren't there yet. In Israel, they still have laws making certain that the Palestinian Arab population cannot reach parity in the society.

In Iran the Bahai are singled out for persecution, in Israel it is the Arab populations of the occupied territories, in the US it is the so called 'illegal' immigrants who are drawn here by corporate interests looking for cheap labor. Women are more or less 2nd class citizens in pretty much every culture on earth, so there is no need to even go there.

We all have a long way to go from the standpoint of democracy and a meaningful balance between personal freedom and respect for the rights of others.

Great! So Iran's a democracy! :-)

Israel is a democratic country. It has Muslim Arab politicians in its Knesset, it has Muslim Arab doctors in its hospitals, it has Muslim Arab students in its Universities, etc. etc. Show me any Arab country with Jewish or even Israeli politicians, doctors, or university students in its midst.


that would be Iran, for that answer

p.s.

The Association of Civil Rights, Israel is founded by members of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, which is yet another proof that Israeli is a democratic country. :-)

Peace, Shalom, Salaam,

Igor

Grammar and spelling corrections for Igor by Frank Michaelis.

Thank you for demonstrating that freedom of press is also found in Israel, otherwise, you wouldn't be quoting Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper. :-)

Peace, Shalom, Salaam,

Igor

You're right..There are no democratic regimes in the Middle East and this includes Israel. The difference is the fact that Israel is also a racist state one of the reasons that has driven Israeli historian Ilan Pappe to quit his job at Haifa University and migrate out of the country.Findings about Israeli racism can also be found in Israeli media http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/932384.html

No, I'm not kidding! Israel is most the pluralistic, democratic society in the Middle East. Please name me another country in the Middle East that it more democratic.

Peace, Shalom, Salaam

Igor

Grammar and spelling corrections for Igor by Frank Michaelis.

Are you Kidding? "Israel is a democratic country. It has Muslim Arab politicians in its Knesset, it has Muslim Arab doctors in its hospitals, it has Muslim Arab students in its Universities, etc. etc." This is is like saying that the US has American Indians as doctors, students etc. These are not migrant workers, they are the indiginous people of the land and not Russian or European immigrants. 1 out of 4 Israelis is not a Jew! Israel should have more Palestinian Knesset members because their number now does not reflect the 1.5 million Palestinian-Israelis. And since Israel still holds on to the West Bank Palestinian representation in the Knesset should be about 50%...but there is a word for all of this: Apartheid.

Logcabin,

Israel is a democratic country. It has Muslim Arab politicians in its Knesset, it has Muslim Arab doctors in its hospitals, it has Muslim Arab students in its Universities, etc. etc. Show me any Arab country with Jewish or even Israeli politicians, doctors, or university students in its midst. You mustn't forget that most Arab countries are still at a state of war, or do not have any diplomatic ties with Israel, and some even officially threaten to wipe Israel off the map, so do not take their news as entirely propaganda free, and remain a little open minded. As a Russian businessman, I have often visited the region, including Israel, and I know first hand that things are not entirely as they are presented in the media.
In order to get a more balanced view about Israel as a society, besides watching Linktv, I highly recommend you to read the Jerusalem Post @ www.jpost.com , and watch the Internet streaming of IBA's (Israel Broadcast Authority) news @ http://www.iba.org.il/

Best regards,

Igor

Grammar and spelling corrections for Igor made by Frank Michaelis.

The Jewish have persecuted the Palestinians from some time in the 1950's- I remember reading my grandfathers Saga Magazines with photos of the atrocities done to the Palestians by the Jewish. I have no sympathy for the Jewish, and I am part Jewish. God threw them out of their region for a purpose. I am not condoning the Holocaust that happened to them in Europe...my question is why they have gone to a land and created the same Holocaust that happened to them? I have watched the persecution in many other media editions, and this needs to stop. Another question I have is: Why is America supporting such a thing? And I am American. Answer: People in America are truly innocent of the knowledge or even the fact that Linktv.org exists.